A very different CBC: an interview with Peter Menzies

December 16, 2024

If you do a Search of Canadian journalist Peter Menzies you will discover one thing that is demonstrably untrue: that he is “still an occasional author.“

He is in fact prolific. And a great deal of his analysis and opinion work is in Canadian media policy. That befits a life spent in news journalism but also a lengthy stint serving on the CRTC (rising to Vice-Chair for Telecommunications). He writes a weekly Substack column.

I discovered his writing because over the last several years of Liberal government in Ottawa I noticed that he and I disagreed on seemingly everything. But I also noted that his was usually the perspective I had to grapple with in order to formulate my own.

As for the CBC and its future, Menzies is neither defender nor defunder. He is a critic and he is blunt in his criticism.

One thing that he and I agree upon is that the CBC must be the centrepiece of any cogent public policy for Canadian news journalism. That comes across in an essay he wrote with former CRTC chair Konrad von Finckenstein in 2023, And Now the News (to which Ivor Shapiro and I responded, here).

Here, Menzies answered my questions about the CBC:

Q. Let’s get right to the point. If something needs fixing at the CBC, what is it?

Too many Canadians, often for ideological but also for regional/cultural reasons simply don’t see their realties reflected in the broadcasts or in the online copy. That needs to be addressed and I’m not sure that’s possible at this stage. Its biggest problem is not that – at least for the English part – so many Conservatives want to kill it, it’s that a large number of people just don’t care if it lives or dies.

And we are moving into a post-Woke, post cancel culture time in which people have tired of reading and watching what they interpret as sermons disguised as news copy. There’s a growing backlash against moral instruction and a deep desire on the part of consumers to have news delivered to them in a fashion that trusts the reader to draw conclusions. There’s work to be done across the industry on that.

Q. It seems to me that the CBC is mired in the classic Canadian paradigm of metropolis and hinterland. Outside of central Canada, it’s viewed as a central Canadian institution with a central Canadian institutional culture. It seems to drive the politics about the CBC. How do you get at changing that?

You probably have to physically relocate. I remember, for instance, when CBC News Network started the day being anchored in Halifax, then moved with the sun to Toronto, then West to an anchor in Calgary and finally in Vancouver. If I had my way – just kidding, sort of – I’d put their head office in Baker Lake, which is the community closest to the nation’s geographical centre but Winnipeg would do.

It needs to have multiple homes spread across the country. The physical infrastructure is there; the mentality is not. Nothing against Toronto but its culture and interests are very unique.

Q. You’ve been writing frequently about a different CBC for several years now, and one constant message has been getting the CBC out of the advertising market in television and digital. You frame it as part of a holistic Canadian media policy, because it would be good for private media too. 

Yes, Richard Stursberg said once at a CRTC hearing that the CBC is not a public broadcaster – it is a publicly-funded commercial broadcaster and that has stuck in my mind ever since. Corporately, it shape-shifts so that when it needs government money, it can play the public broadcaster violin but when it sees a commercial advantage, like online news advertising, it can put on its CNN of the North cape and play private sector media. This sort of dualistic life is eating its soul because advertisers want strong GTA numbers which over time impacts how people in a Toronto office measure success and works against the CBC fulfilling its mandate as a truly national institution.

It also undermines efforts by legacy private sector media to transition to digital only by competing there for advertising, which lowers rates and opportunities.

Q. But what about the audience benefits in going ad-free for CBC programming? 

CBC Radio One is a leader in almost every major radio market in the country because it is ad free. Private radio broadcasters are generally okay with that because they don’t have to compete with them for advertising revenue.

It’s also popular locally because it’s locally produced and informs people about what’s going on in their community and is important to people. It’s less political – big P and little p – less preachy and people can relate to local on-air personalities. But then it switches to day time programming out of Toronto and, with apologies to folks there, the world according to Toronto doesn’t sell all that well in Antigonish, Thomson or Grande Prairie.

Q. Back to the holistic policy for Canadian journalism: you’ve endorsed the idea of CBC providing its news content to other news outlets for free, like a no-fee syndication service. A creative commons. How would you implement that?

Yes. CBC should be a sister or brother to other media within the national media ecosystem, not a competitor. So long as the content is produced through subsidy, it should be of benefit to everyone – domestically – through something similar to a creative commons license. This could be of significant assistance in so-called news deserts and would need to have reasonable limits but I really think that if we are going to have a publicly-funded broadcaster, the benefits that come from that need to flow through to private media as well. That’s much preferred to the direct subsidies we’ve got going now that destroy trust in media.

Q. To create a real CBC creative commons of local news, CBC might have to invest more in local?

They should do that anyway. Only what is local is real to most people. All media know that but these days almost all of them just offer lip service and centralize everything. CTV and Global used to have General Managers in Calgary, Edmonton, Halifax, St. John’s, etc. Now their breakfast and other shows get produced out of Toronto. Headlines in the Star Phoenix are written in Hamilton. It’s suicidal short termisim but it helps executives meet their numbers and get their bonuses. Bit of a rant there but the CBC mandate demands local. But they’ve wandered from that. Their mandate and their CRTC licence conditions are all a charade if no one ever has their performance measured against them.

Q. In an article you wrote for The Line in 2020 —with some hilarious commentary I might add— you suggested the CBC is obsessed with US current events and should stop. Care to elaborate?

Because they are centred in Montreal and Toronto, there is a gravitational pull within the CBC culture that influences their news curation and programming decisions and as I earlier mentioned the advertising incentive exaggerates that. They seem to want to compete with CNN, MSNBC, etc. rather than just serving Canadians. So every Monday morning the national news on radio tends to lead with USA USA USA because Toronto is very USA facing. Of course USA news is important but the entire reason the CBC exists – frig, the entire reason the Broadcasting Act exists – is to ensure that Canada doesn’t just become the 51st state, if not geographically then culturally. I just want them to do their job. 

Q. As a follow up to that, some experts on the CBC like Waddell and Stursberg have endorsed a news curation strategy that involves reinvesting in global reporting as a way of “explaining the world to Canadians.” What do you think of that as a programming priority?

Sure, in an ideal world that might be nice but I wouldn’t do it at the risk of local. In an online world, there are multiple sources of international news that aren’t American that people can go to so I don’t see the same imperative there as I do for who’s covering school boards in Moncton because right now no one is doing that although I’m sure someone in Moncton will correct me. But you get the drift. 

Q. Back to news curation, what do you think of CBC’s overall editorial performance? 

Journalism in Canada these days is occasionally brilliant, too often disappointing and regularly just bad. There is a general malaise that has come from somewhere – I’m assuming the j-schools are teaching it – that abandons the aspiration to produce news as objectively as possible – the way consumers want it delivered. 

I think it is absolutely killing the business. Plus, you now have to have a degree to get a job. Why? It’s not a profession, it’s a trade and a noble one at that. Whatever happened to the blue collar men and women holding the powerful to account? Now you have to have tens of thousands of dollars to go to university for four, five or six years which means chances are your reporters are from upper middle class suburban backgrounds. And why? The basics can be taught in four or five courses over eight or nine months followed by an apprenticeship. If you can’t get the basics down in six months, you won’t get them in six years. Which is a long-winded way of saying the CBC should stop – right now – insisting on university degrees. They misunderstand the business.

And because of that, they misunderstand Canadians.

Q. One thing you hear whenever the topic of reinvigorating the CBC comes up is a recommendation that it pick some priorities and make some hard decisions about programming and services, whether that’s to cut costs or redirect budgets. Do you have any thoughts about how to do that?

I think it’s worth asking whether we need CBC TV daytime programming at all or more than one radio network in each language and what the heck did we do turning Radio Canada International into a domestic multicultural broadcaster? Like, either do the job or don’t but don’t run that scam.

I think it has way too much water in its wine, tries to do too many things and take up too much space in the ecosphere. So I’d be fine with – in English anyway – trimming it down to a single 24-hour news channel with maybe four to six hours of prime time, 100% Canadian, entertainment content. In other words, merge CBC News Network – with mandated stories from coast to coast – and CBC. 

Do the same with radio. A single English language radio network with local morning and afternoon drive shows, national programming evening only and move the music into the daytime slots – for instance and dump the national day time programs. I’m not saying this definitively but provocatively to prompt some “why not” thinking to clear out dead wood not only in programming but administratively and bureaucratically. Right now. Because if they don’t, someone’s going to do it for them.

Q. If Pierre Poilievre gets elected sometime in 2025, CBC English services might be walking the plank. In January there will be a new CEO with a new mandate. What would you do if you were in her shoes?

Well the new mandate already is a few weeks behind when we were expecting it but I’m sure Madam Bouchard has a pretty good idea where it’s going. She doesn’t have much time. She needs to move quickly and decisively, unrolling an action – not an aspirational – plan within 60 days and begin implementing it within 30 more days. It’s that simple. 

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